The Outdoor Hospitality Podcast

Meet Your Host: Shari Heilala, the Owner and CEO of Sage Outdoor Advisory

• Sage Outdoor Advisory

Share episode

Send us a text

Connor welcomes new co‑host Shari Heilala to dig into the data, the grit, and the joy that power outdoor hospitality—from feasibility studies and appraisals to design choices that actually raise rates and length of stay. Shari brings a rare mix: she’s valued massive retail portfolios, led international corporate services, developed her own apartments, and for years has guided campgrounds, RV resorts, and glamping projects with lender‑ready analysis.

We get practical on what separates a viable concept from a pretty pitch. Shari breaks down the difference between appraisals and feasibility studies, why most outdoor resort valuations are income‑driven, and how lenders read assumptions on occupancy, ADR, expenses, and debt coverage. We explore the shifts inside RV demand—why travel trailers outpace big rigs today, how tow vehicles and fuel costs shape modern rigs, and what is changing in RV resort site design. On the glamping side, we look at competitive edges that last: water access, dark skies, privacy, unique, or uniquely inspired architecture and design. 

Permitting and entitlements get real talk as well. We share how specialist architects streamline hearings, craft persuasive site plans, and help avoid costly missteps. Shari also opens up about the personal why: growing up on lakes, chasing dawn wakeboard sessions, and believing that well‑designed nature stays are durable because they restore people. 

If you’re planning a glamping site, expanding an RV resort, or just curious how the best outdoor properties are built, this conversation gives you a roadmap. 

Subscribe, share, and consider leaving us a review with the one question you want us to tackle next.

Clockwork Design
Outdoor hospitality's top architecture & design firm. To learn more email christian@clockwork-ad.com

Sage Outdoor Advisory
Sage is the leading outdoor consultancy in feasibility studies and appraisals in the USA.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

This episode is powered by Sage Outdoor Advisory the industry leaders in feasibility studies and appraisals.

We work hard to bring you the best insights from top experts in this space- FREE OF CHARGE, all we ask is that you consider leaving us a positive review so we can keep the momentum growing. To leave a review go to the podcast home page and scroll down past some of the first episodes - we appreciate you!

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome back to another episode of the Outdoor Hospitality Podcast. I'm your host, Connor Schwab, joined by our future incoming or currently incoming, my additional co-host, Sherry Halala. Welcome, Sherry.

SPEAKER_04:

Hello, Connor. Hello, everyone.

SPEAKER_02:

So this is a continuation of what we did with my last episode where Nick interviewed me to hand over the reins of the podcast. And now I'm going to be doing that to Sherry, who's essentially taking Nick's place as my co-host on the podcast. Kind of a general structure that we'll have moving forward as we're still going to have a lot of the core glamping landscape resort unique stay content. And then we'll also be bringing in with Sherry's help some of her expertise in the RV resort, campground, hotel space. And so basically expanding a little bit more to the whole range of the outdoor hospitality space. And so we wanted to dive into Sherry's background and give you a chance to get to know her personally. And she's really been quite an influential person in the space and has a huge wealth of diverse information in, you know, all across real estate and feasibilities and appraisals, and more than I think people even realize. And so it'll be fun to dive into that. I've had the pleasure of being on many calls with Sherry with some you know big execs and high-powered developers on some huge projects and huge calls. And I'm always thankful when Sherry's there because I don't know if I've I don't think I've ever seen you be stumped, you know, on one of those big calls when someone mentions a you know a fancy finance term that I'm not familiar with, or something about, you know, technical debt questions or you know, business or equity structures or legal terms. And I feel like you just always have an answer. So it's always nice for me to to have you on those calls. So I look forward to kind of diving into how you got all that great experience.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, Connor. Well, part of the secret is that I've been around a long time.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Well, let's let's start at the beginning. Where where'd you grow up?

SPEAKER_04:

That is actually one of the hardest questions, to be honest, because I grew up in about six or seven different states. But I would say mostly I I claim to be from Wisconsin, a very small town. And I grew up just being kind of a fearless kid, which I know that's how you and I sort of bonded over being excited about doing new things and not being afraid to go after challenges and dreams. So I graduated from high school in Louisiana and then went back to Wisconsin to University of Wisconsin in Madison for college.

SPEAKER_02:

I didn't know you lived in Louisiana. Were you in New Orleans or somewhere else?

SPEAKER_04:

Baton Rouge. Wow. Got to party in New Orleans as a kid, which was good. But no, I I was born in St. Louis. I lived in Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, all over the place.

SPEAKER_02:

Holy smokes. So did you ever, and this is just a total stereotype, but like, did you ever, you know, do any gator hunting or anything down in Louisiana or you know, going around in the swamp or anything like that?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. In full camo gear. I love snakes and gators in the water.

SPEAKER_02:

Perfect. I'm so surprised there isn't any glamping down there in the Louisiana swamp.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, swamp tours are a thing with those airboats, though, but I haven't done that yet.

SPEAKER_02:

I've done that in Florida and it was very cool. So I'd be curious how it goes down in in Louisiana. I've actually never been to Louisiana, so I that's probably why I sound so uneducated about it. All right. So where'd you end up going for college?

SPEAKER_04:

For college at the University of Wisconsin. You and I had a little nerdy engineering background in common. I started there to be an engineer and quickly realized my passion was elsewhere and switched to the business school. And I ended up getting a double major in finance and real estate. Gosh, more than 35 years ago now. So one great thing that I guess I chose right because I've been in that industry ever since.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's UW Wisconsin, right? That's right. And that's they have kind of a top real estate program, right?

SPEAKER_04:

They do. They've been ranked first or second since way back then. I'm super proud of that.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. And what what kind of a a college student were you? Were you were you, you know, hunkering down in the library or were you out partying, or were you kind of a work hard playhard?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I think you were a work hard playhard.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. There's a lot of play hard and then hunker down in the library the night before and miraculously pull off an A or a B. But I I I didn't aim to be a 4.0 student. I I aimed to have a really well-rounded experience. Cause uh it was it was a great place to be. And yeah, we did we we did, you know, softball on ice, where you drink beer from a keg at every base. And I did a charity event up at a Ski Hill when I was there, you know, partied at the football games. But I really loved the real estate program there. And it was hands-on, which is unique. So we we were combined with the grad students, and so for instance, our real estate development class, we were told where the development site was, and it was owned by real estate investors. And we we actually went and did the research and pitched to the owners of the land what we thought they should develop and why, and did all the analysis for it. And that was one of the reasons why I fell in love with real estate and why I loved that program so much, because it was tangible and we got real world experience, which really benefited from.

SPEAKER_02:

That's amazing. Uh that's kind of your capstone is to go out. And did you did the landowners have connection with the school or were they total strangers?

SPEAKER_04:

That's a good question. I I'm not sure, but they got probably 12 different pitches from different teams of students, and they didn't pick ours. We were lowly undergrads.

SPEAKER_02:

Some grad students did a little bit better job, and they got that's that's funny that they have the undergrads compete with the grad students in the same combination.

SPEAKER_04:

That was good for us being an undergrad. I mean, we got the same quality education, and our appraisal class was an appraisal of a real building where we went out and did a full appraisal. And funny enough, I didn't try really hard in that class. I said, I'm never gonna be an appraiser, and lo and behold, I became an appraiser.

SPEAKER_02:

What what do you think attracted you to real estate or or made you want to get into that field over you know, all the all the glamour of the engineering field?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, I'm still a numbers geek at heart, and I wanted to use kind of that that side of my brain, but it was, yeah, something tangible. Real estate's kind of sexy. I wanted to be in commercial real estate. I thought I was gonna be a developer out of school. I didn't graduate at a time where there were jobs like that. So I fulfilled that dream of becoming a developer in 2019. I developed my own apartment building because that's something I always wanted to do. And it was it was a success, thankfully. And everything's different. Every property's different, every market's different, and there's a lot of problem solving and a lot of risk and a lot of reward.

SPEAKER_02:

So just development, as I've learned over the past seven years, is uh it's a high-stakes game, not for the faint of heart. You know, big risks, big rewards.

SPEAKER_04:

Not for the faint of heart is exactly the what came into my mind going through it. And I thought, you know, when developers make good money off of their ventures, it's not without a lot of hard work, a lot of diligence, and a lot of sleepless nights.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Connor, do you want to talk about glamping permits for a second?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's it's hugely important. The two biggest roadblocks to getting you know glamping projects built is the funding and the entitlements and the permitting. So it's it's a really big deal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and it can be a very challenging and you know, sometimes quite intimidating process, not just putting all the materials together, but presenting it to the county, often going through the public hearing process, which can be really scary and sometimes quite nasty. And that's why it does help to have people who are used to doing this on your side. And that's why we're delighted to announce that today's sponsors are Clockwork Architecture and Design. They're an architecture firm based in Kansas City. They have a specialist outdoor hospitality division that have done tons of work in the glamping and RV resort space. They're experts at designing and permitting glamping resorts or whatever kind of outdoor hospitality project it is. They'll come to your property, walk the land with you, work at work through a concept with you, design the whole layout of the site, and then gather all the materials for the county, deal with the county, deal with the public hearings if you'd like them to. Uh, and they're just you know all-round fantastic partners to have on your side. And Connor, I know you and Sage have had uh some pretty good experiences with clockwork as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we've we've been working with clockwork literally the entire time that I've been at the company, so for four years. And so we've done dozens and dozens of projects with them. And love the chance to get to work with them because you know they are the best and most experienced in the industry. They they really know outdoor hospitality and they've designed some world-class sites. It's just, yeah, they're they're very talented. You'd be in good hands to work with them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I can't vouch highly enough for Christian Arnold at Clockwork, the owner. He's a you know fantastic guy who cares about what he does, looks after his clients, very reliable communication-wise as well. And yeah, we're we're super excited to partner with them on this. So if you are looking for site designs, you know, entitlement help, whatever it may be in that field, then do con contact Clockwork Architecture and Design. And the way you can do that is by emailing Christian at clockwork-ad.com. All the details will be in the description as well. So go check that out if you want. So, yeah, thank you, Clockwork. We couldn't recommend them highly enough. Go check them out.

SPEAKER_02:

So, what was your first job out of college? Or what did you do after you graduated?

SPEAKER_04:

I was a property manager in Chicago. I managed office building and some retail shopping centers. So that was that didn't last a really long time. I was working for a smaller property owner that didn't really have the funds to invest in like all the upgrades that really would have been needed. So I ended up becoming a little bit of a babysitter. And that's when I moved on into appraisal. I did have an internship my last summer of college, and the the story's kind of funny, and I've told my kids this story because of how much things have changed, but I knew I needed the experience before I graduated, you know, and couldn't really find it was 1989, so I there weren't a lot of the market was was down then. There weren't a lot of opportunities, so I got the yellow pages out, and I opened the yellow pages to the real estate section, and I started with the first one and just dialed for a job and said who I was, that I was a student and that I would work for free. Will you give me a job? And I got a job in the C section. Looking at the A's and B's. Uh I worked for uh an entrepreneur, Chicago neighborhood investors. And then he so I helped him with some asset management stuff, and then he hooked me up with a friend of his who developed golf courses, and I did some work for him as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, developing the golf course. I love that dialing for the yellow pages because that's probably holds true today as the most surefire way to go get a job. And no one does it. That's what makes it so good. In the in the today's day and age of LinkedIn and all these job boards where people just, you know, to like one click apply. I I try to give a lot of free advice to friends and and colleagues and people I'm mentoring about when they're searching for a job. And the reality is most job applications will get 50, 100, 200, 500 resume applicants to them. And for the person looking through them, which oftentimes is me, as I've done dozens and dozens of times, you barely get any time to look at each resume. And it's very easy to get overlooked, especially if your resume doesn't jump out immediately with the skills needed for the job. And but so few people call and say, Hey, can I speak with the manager of this job or can I I'll work for free? I'm interested. How can I help you? So I I love that.

SPEAKER_04:

I did get paid$8 an hour.

SPEAKER_02:

Heck yeah. Heck yeah. That was probably pretty good.

SPEAKER_04:

It wasn't bad.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And all right, so then you did the property management, that was short, you didn't love it. How did you how did you find this appraisal route, despite in college you being like, I'm never gonna be an appraiser?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Well, you know Kristen Anderson Garwood, who is our our other VP of outdoor hospitality. She and I met in real estate class in Wisconsin. And at the time, she took an appraisal job with a big national appraisal company. And they said to her, Man, I could use one more bright, you know, real estate student coming out of college just like you. And Kristen said, I know somebody. And that was me. So we worked together at that time. She just came back and joined us at Sage Outdoor Advisory, you know, 30, whatever years later from that. But um, we did a lot of regional malls. I appraised the largest regional mall in the country at the time, which I personally think is kind of hilarious that you know a 22-year-old was doing that. But uh but it's a notch on my belt. So it was fun. And yeah, I did that for a while.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's interesting. I'm familiar with the appraisal side of your business because you every year appraise what is it like a 50, 50 property portfolio for one of the large one of the largest mall owners or retail owners in the country, and you guys do that every year?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, more like 130 properties now. It started with 50 and they they keep acquiring and they've expanded into office and multifamily and similar things. So that has been a huge growth driver on our appraisal side of the business, which is now run by a very, very capable woman with her MAI who's worked for me for a long time. So I get to focus 99% of my time on the outdoor, uh outdoor industry.

SPEAKER_02:

From starting at 22 with the the largest mall in America to landing, you know, one of the biggest mall clients in the country. We should we should have a whole podcast on malls.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. We could. There that's actually a really interesting topic, but I guess we'll stay focused, huh?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So so how did that, what happened in that appraisal job or career, how long was it? What'd you do?

SPEAKER_04:

You know, like I said, I I thought I wanted to do more. And I took a position at Cushman and Wakefield shortly after that that initial job and was doing a lot of affordable apartments and just wasn't really feeling super inspired at the time. And I got offered a job in doing corporate services, servicing Cushman and Wakefield's large corporate clients and kind of bringing all of the company's services to those clients and negotiating some small deals. And that ended up taking me to California. And I ended up leading the team for the first corporate services client where we brought international services to the client. And it was before Cushman and Wakefield owned all of their offices internationally. They were all partnerships. So I had conference calls from 5 a.m. to 8 p.m. at night. We were doing deals in every continent, almost every continent. So that was super challenging. And I was getting gray hairs at 28 at the time, which thankfully went away for a couple of decades after. But it was a huge personal, personal growth time for me learning to lead a team and deliver services in a new platform internationally. So that was pretty cool. And to answer your next question, why did I leave that? Because you know I got back into appraisal and consulting. And really it was because I started a family. And the demands of that job were kind of tearing me apart with the travel and the hours. So I moved back to Chicago and went back into the appraisal business, just trying to have a little bit of work-life balance. And I worked for a small appraisal company at the time and part-time initially, but my my ambition got the best of me that quickly rolled back into full-time. But that's where I appraised my first campground over 20 years ago. And really, really fell in love with that. I I get bored easily and I'm always looking for a new challenge. And I had actually been a hotel expert in the valuation group at Cushman and Wakefield way back when. And it kind of touched on a lot of similar concepts. So I welcomed any of that work that came in my way after that. And eventually I realized, you know, I got my MAI and I was really ready to try to do things on my own. I really wasn't at the time looking to build any kind of major operation. I just kind of wanted work-life balance and kind of pilot my own plane, so to speak. A lot of those clients from the campground and RV resort industry found me. And that is how it all started and how Sage Outdoor Advisory was born. And we did our first glamping project in 2018. And as you know, Connor, and the ads for our podcast say, you know, we've done well over 300 outdoor hospitality projects since then. Our revenues have grown tremendously, a lot of it propelled by when you came on board and started dreaming big with me, which I love to do. And we kind of grabbed the bull by the horns, and it's been a wild, wild ride since then.

SPEAKER_02:

What a journey. And so so going out on your own and and starting your own business, you know, it started more, it started more on the appraisal side, general real estate. And and then didn't you also go back to school at one point?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I was in Northwestern's executive MBA program as well, which, man, anybody who I know you went to a really unique MBA program, which was great for you, but I gotta say, when you're an undergrad, you're just kind of taking it all in, trying to get the grades, you want to get a good job. But going back into an MBA program after working in the real world is super, super rewarding and insightful. And uh, I really, really enjoyed that as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So UW Madison top real estate and finance degree, followed by an MAI, which is very the highest level in the appraisal world, then going to an MBA program at Northwestern, then you're like, all right, I think I want to start my own company. And it started off with general appraiser and on the commercial side. And then I guess as you how did you start doing feasibility studies? Maybe you could share with folks like what the difference is between those two things. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, great question. So I had a client, and I but I'd love to name him and honor him, Rich Stockwell, with RV Park Consulting, because he was one of my biggest clients when I started doing campground appraisals. And he he would refer me to people doing ground up development because he felt that the appraisals we did were so in-depth that they were serving the purpose of a feasibility study, really. And the main difference was with an appraisal, you are determining market, you're still doing evaluating the market, coming up with rates and occupancy, doing a full income and expense pro forma, but instead of calculating rates of return or your debt service debt yeah, debt coverage ratios, you're determining market value and the market value of what it is currently, if it's vacant land, if it's entitled, as well as what it would be when it's complete and when it's stabilized. And so it's really just those final steps that are different. And in appraisal, you also will support that with sales approach and comparable sales, which is very difficult in the outdoor hospitality world. So it's really all income-based, is what you're you're deriving your values on. So the nuts and bolts are extremely similar. And Rich's team was doing their feasibility studies initially, and his team was unable to do them, and he respected my work and said, Would you like to do the feasibility studies that we've been doing for our clients? I think you'd be great at them. And I I, of course, said absolutely. And that continued to grow from there. And a lot of because of my appraisal background and working with a lot of clients that were banks, we really have a niche in providing reports and the data necessary to support investment and financing decisions and understanding what they want to see and what makes a good, well-supported and well-researched report. So along the way, I've learned a ton on the consulting side and where to give advice. And it's gone beyond just doing the numbers and being able to recommend how many units and a variety and what kind of amenities and all those kinds of extra fun things. Hello, listeners. This is Sherry Halala, founder of Sage Outdoor Advisory. If you're launching an outdoor hospitality project like Clamping, we can help. We offer feasibility studies and appraisals. What that means is we look at your specific market and proposed business offering and complete an in-depth analysis to make sure that your planned business will be profitable. Getting a second opinion on your proposal and forecasted financials is critical to understand before you spend years of your time and hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is particularly important if you are looking to raise money for your project from a bank or private investors. They are going to want to see this type of deep dive analysis from an independent third-party specialist in the industry. We at Sage have completed well over 250 feasibility studies and appraisals in outdoor hospitality in North America in the last four years. So we understand what it takes to bring a project from concept to reality. If this sounds like it could be helpful to you, you can go to our website, SageOutdoorAdvisory.com, and schedule a call with our team. While you're there, check out our proprietary glamping database map too. Thanks. Now back to the show.

SPEAKER_02:

It is interesting because you seem to be familiar and have at least some experience in almost every aspect of a real estate transaction, kind of from every angle, you know, whether whether it be the appraisal side or the developer side or a corporate services side, international domestic, tons of different asset classes. You've done a lot of your own real estate transactions and developments as well as well as invested in things. And so I think that brings a really rich perspective that most appraisers wouldn't be able to do, having, you know, if they just specialize and only do that, which is super valuable and certainly comes through when we're speaking with clients. And how was it that you decided, like what attracted you to want to? Because it started as Sage Commercial Advisory, which is predominantly appraisals for all types of commercial real estate. And then what was it that attracted you to the outdoor space and want to start Sage outdoor advisory that was focused on the outdoor hospitality space?

SPEAKER_04:

My love of the outdoors, really. I mentioned I grew up in Wisconsin. My favorite childhood memory is camping and boating. We camped in a state park every summer for a couple weeks and with a group of families, and we'd pull up our ski boat right up to our campsite on the beach and be around the campfire at night. And every other weekend that we weren't camping, we'd be out on the boat, you know, playing music from the boat, doing crazy things, you know, behind the boat with skiing and knee boarding and barefooting even. And just I love it. And with today's overly connected world and me being probably too ambitious all the time and putting too much on my plate, I've realized how badly I need the outdoors for my own mental well-being, physical well-being. I moved up onto a lake out of the city in the last few years. And it just combines the what I love in my personal life with my professional life. It's really feels like a second career, even though I've stayed within this, you know, one kind of commercial real estate area. But it's it's a second career that is truly a labor of love now. And knowing that I'm I'm not just supporting developers who want to build anything that makes money. I'm supporting people's dreams and people's goals to connect people to nature. And to me, that that feels good.

SPEAKER_02:

So well said, after my own heart. And I know you and I related strongly on that, which was a big reason for us, probably even more from a personal level than a professional level, like wanting this to be called the Outdoor Hospitality Podcast, because I know for me that was always very obvious, and I I think for you as well. And and I think this summer from your lake house, you know, you've still been having your weekly board meetings. I think wakeboarding behind the boats has still been a regular thing for you this summer. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, after sunrise, if the water's good, one of my good friends who's on our board of directors, um, yeah, we we do that while one of us drives the boat and the other one tries to do crazy, crazy stuff behind the boat. So I'm a big wakeboarder, used to be a show waterskier, and I c I call myself an aging action adventure junkie.

SPEAKER_02:

What kind of show water? I love I you know I love slalom skiing. So what kind of show water skiing were you doing?

SPEAKER_04:

Because that's I similar to the Tommy Bartlett show, although we were I was not on the Tommy Bartlett team, I did water show water skiing. So we would do the ballet lines where you'd have you know 12 women in a row on one slalom ski, and we would hold the rope with our toe and you know do the do the kind of arm movements and flags, and then we built human water ski pyramids, and yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, it was I just wanted to be behind a boat and I didn't have one at the time, so that's what I did. And I've been flirting with getting back into it, but I think I need like a seniors show team or something.

SPEAKER_02:

That is so badass and very difficult, very difficult to pull pull off those moves. I can't even imagine how you do a pyramid. Was it a three, two, one pyramid? Literally on shoulders, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. I was in the middle. So crazy. You all start off on two skis and then you drop them and basically climb up people and get on their shoulders and then hold the rope and then let people climb on you.

unknown:

Jeez.

SPEAKER_02:

That is hilarious. Yeah, I gotta see some photos of that.

SPEAKER_04:

They're very fuzzy because they're old.

SPEAKER_02:

You're you're in the process of of getting a second board meeting certification because I know you've tried some tried some kite boarding out recently as well, I believe.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, inspired by inspired by you, Connor. Yeah, that's that's that's on the short-term goal list, and I just see those people flying through the air, and I got I gotta do it. I gotta do it.

SPEAKER_02:

So what maybe would be interesting is you know, you you appraised your first RV park campground 20 years ago, started Sage Commercial Advisory around 10 years ago, and then Sage Outdoor Advisory around five?

SPEAKER_04:

Fifteen years ago for Sage Commercial and seven, I don't know, seven or more for Sage.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So what what how have you seen the outdoor hospitality industry change? You know, like what was it like 2015, you know, seven years ago versus today?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, I mean, we we know that glamping really came on the scene recently in the last seven or eight years in the US, outside of under Canvas and a few others, but um on the RV side, that's changed a lot because the focus 10 plus years ago was just on providing uh filling in that that hole in the market to accommodate big rig Class A RVs. That was the growing segment, that was the name of the game to be competitive, and because most campgrounds and RV parks at that time, 20 years ago, were developed when class A huge RVs with slide-outs didn't exist. So that was the name of the game. And you wanted 90-foot long sites by 40 feet, you wanted to make sure the turning radius was there for the big vehicles. And now it's a little more nuanced because that's not the fastest growing RV segment anymore. There's, you know, we had a we had a boom with camper vans, which if anyone's listened to your Sandy Vans episode also knows that that that's pulled back a little just. Despite Sandy Band's huge success. And travel trailers have emerged as the higher growth segment. So I think that the driving demand factor for design has changed a little bit. It's not so clear that you just make a park for big rigs. It really depends on who your target market is. And I think that it's a little more complex in recommended mix of sites and what type of vehicles are coming in and out. And I do think that the amenities have evolved. And you're starting to see more of a focus on wellness in the RV resort space that didn't really go beyond pickleball courts, which by the way, we're all the rage 20 years ago in RV resorts. So they're all the rage everywhere now. But that's the first place I ever heard about pickleball was appraising uh new, new proposed RV parks. But um and obviously the glamping industry has changed dramatically in the last five to seven years, just from not even people not even knowing what it is to being a highly competitive landscape where the big hotel brands have recognized the longevity of outdoor experience driving people's travel desires. So that's something that I think is gonna continue to evolve rapidly in in the glamping world. So I think those are kind of the biggest changes I've seen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And if you had to if you had to guess maybe about where the direction it's headed, or you know, what what do you think happens next? What what's your guess there?

SPEAKER_04:

I think I think domestic travel in the US is gonna continue to be strong and that there's gonna be an underlying resilience in outdoor hospitality just because of people's needs and desires to be in nature and have outdoor, outdoor experiences and unique experiences. But I think that the competitive landscape and the merging of the different types of outdoor hospitality with traditional hospitality, those lines are gonna continue to get blurred. But I do think it's they're both here to stay. And on the RV side, it'll depend on emerging energy technologies, but I think the cost of travel and the cost of gas is gonna continue to drive preferences and RV types in how RV resorts are designed in the future.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm so curious about what's gonna happen in the RV space. It's such a fascinating niche.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I thought, I would have thought that the class B segment, which was basically the smaller vans, sprinter vans, was gonna just be the future. Yeah. And like you said, it's kind of pulled back a little bit. It's hard to break out exactly, you know, Class B is kind of a big segment, how you know, sprinters and things are are doing. I mean, I thought that that would be the future in the sense that it applies, it appeals highly to the new generation in terms of size and you know, fuel economy and simplicity and minimalism and being able to get to hard-to-reach places. And then it was just surprising to see that that kind of pulled back, and then towable trailers is now the one that's had the most growth. And I think I think fifth wheels do pretty well still as well. And class A is like the buses are down, right? I think that's shrinking.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Yeah. Part of it is the evolution of the trucks, I my opinion, is the evolution of the trucks that can pull the trailers. You know, you can have Rivian, and you know, we ended up buying, even though it was diesel, a Duramax to pull our trailer and it was getting 40 miles to the gallon on the highway, and then it could still be our vehicle at home. So it just gives you a little more flexibility and room. And, you know, if you have pets and want a bigger bed and have a family to travel with, it does provide more flexibility. But I've been really, really intrigued about Class B camper van recently. So if I stay tuned on that, I might be talking to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh man, I love I'll I'll talk to you. I've done all three. I've had the chance to do all three a little bit. And I'm just a huge believer in the class B, but you're right. I mean, the truck industry in the US, it's kind of crazy. Like the trucks just keep getting bigger, and truck kill truck culture just keeps getting stronger. People love their trucks, and and it is, you know, the benefits of being able to pull a trailer, leave it at the campsite, and then just go drive around your truck, your daily driver, is very appealing. And you're not worried about two engines. I know when I had my class A bus, it was just the maintenance, you know, you have to drive it, you know, you especially if you're like you're in a freezing location, it's kind of a pain, and you don't want it to just sit there unused for a year or two and the battery dies. And but when you're pulling a trailer, you don't have to worry about engine maintenance. It's just you just have your daily driver to worry about what you're already doing, and you can just pick it up and tow it wherever you need. So that's kind of fascinating. And and how about in maybe the the glamping space where what's what's the best place to be and the worst place to be if you're you know in the market?

SPEAKER_04:

Best place to be is on the water, of course.

SPEAKER_02:

That's definitely true.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, there's more than that, but you know, if you can have some kind of water feature in be near really popular national park, you're golden. But um, you know, the worst place to be is somewhere on a small site that's noisy and and crowded and with a lot of competition. So, you know, those those secluded stays are key in my opinion. And as you know, having a unique story, having a unique piece of land, and having a unique experience is the way to win long term.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I love it. I totally agree. What do you think is your do you have a favorite property that you've gotten to stay at in terms of yeah, just like maybe the property itself is the most the most stunning? And then do you have maybe a favorite unit type or favorite favorite unit at a property that you've been to?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, Darren Connor, because I think we have the same favorite properties.

SPEAKER_02:

Really? Is it is it open sky? Yeah, it's it's so good.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, open sky, sleeping in in this their stargazing unit with the glass open to the sky and the walls and the red rocks. It's just phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you get to sleep in the stargazer there?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I didn't get to stay. I haven't been able to stay in any big those units. I got lucky. You got to stay in there when you appraised it, right?

SPEAKER_04:

I did, yeah. You know, heated floors in the bathroom and copper cloth foot tub and your outdoor shower. Like it just, it was magical. So, and I like you said, in you know, of course I listened to our podcast, so I know you said this recently, you know, the the tents are really hard to beat from a guest experience, especially when it's such a high quality tent, like they offer. And, you know, they've the dark skies, it's just it's unbeatable. And I know there's a lot of other properties like that out there, but that one was one of my first experiences like that. It's really, really stayed with me. The most unique, my favorite, my favorite unit type has to still be the tree house, the ones that are truly up in the trees with those rope bridges that extend from branch to branch. You know, you go on the bridge to get to the hot tub. And the ones that are just really creatively made, I think they're so inspiring. I just from our work, I just know that they're very expensive and difficult to execute. So but from an experience and unique offering standpoint, that's really my favorite unit type.

SPEAKER_02:

And you recently appraised or did a feasibility study or both for Arbor Camp up in Acadia, right?

SPEAKER_04:

I did. Yeah, we did both of those. And I really love that area up in Maine. And their treehouses are a little more like cabin, elevated cabins. And I didn't get to see the 100% finished project, but I really they have a really beautiful piece of land along large creek, I guess you could call it a small river, and they've got boulders all over the site with a variety of terrain. So that's definitely, definitely up there as one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_02:

I look forward to seeing that when it's finished. It sounds, it sounds really nice. That's that's a cool one.

SPEAKER_04:

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02:

And if you are gonna build your own dream property, you know, where is it? What does it look like? What kind of units, what kind of amenities? And then maybe let's say it's let's just say maybe not dream property, but let's say like a realistic, you know, you have a couple million dollars, you're gonna get a loan on it as well. You want to build like a realistic, a realistic dream property that ideally has some returns.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. That's funny because as soon as you said that, I'm like, dream property just dreaming or using everything we know?

SPEAKER_02:

Dream property that has no returns.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. Yeah, so I can I can actually combine a little bit of both both of those dreams. And I've like I've been thinking about it a lot. I I have a really huge love of animals. My and my son is in the industry of caring for animals at a vet clinic. And I'm not the only one with this idea, but I would love to combine an animal sanctuary with clamping in a respectful way to support the animals. That would be kind of my retirement or semi-retirement dream. I you know that I almost bought a unique cabin property and I realized that I would want to be a lot more involved than I than than I planned initially when wanting to be a primary investor and wanting I did back out. But when I have the time in life, I would love a waterfront glamping animal sanctuary that allows that allows the guests to help support caring for and taking care of the animals in a in a way that's healthy for the animals and probably be out west somewhere, maybe Montana. I would want to make sure that we're still near somewhere with winter demand, urine demand is key. So yeah, I think that's that's kind of when you say animal sanctuary, what kind of animals come to mind?

SPEAKER_02:

You're like, oh, I want these animals at my animal sanctuary.

SPEAKER_04:

Uh we could have some rescued ponies and some alpacas, and of course, we need baby goats and the uh highland cows, you know, anybody, anything cute that needs help.

SPEAKER_02:

I got to go to an animal sanctuary up in Alaska in the spring. Yeah, up in the spring, and it was super, it was very cool. I loved it. They had all sorts of crazy stuff, and it was it was very cool. And I was imagining if there was clamping there, would be a pretty cool experience as well. And yeah, I I like I like your concept. That would be unique. I know a couple of our clients have incorporated Highland cows and I think donkeys that I believe that property is doing doing pretty well in South Carolina.

SPEAKER_04:

And I'm not opposed to not so helping not so cute animals.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's just is there gonna be a sauna at your property, Sherry? Come on, shoot me straight.

SPEAKER_04:

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_04:

Cold plunge, all kinds, you know. Ideally, we're cold plunging in a creek, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

What unit types are you using?

SPEAKER_04:

I think I would do some kind of authentic unique cabin that's that's in line with the culture of the area.

SPEAKER_02:

So it'd be stick built, like unique.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, stick built. If we can do it affordably, I've always thought that it'd be cool to do a combination of canvas and a rustic cabin look if you're out west, where maybe you can take the canvas part down in the winter, but they kind of be like your your outdoor front area. Interesting that you live in. And I also think one thing that nobody's doing with their glamping structures is screened in porches. I know they're not the prettiest thing, but man, are they awesome for kind of being indoor outdoors and not being bothered by by bugs and stuff. And they could be super comfortable and you could even sleep in them. So that's another idea.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, my friends in Finland have this kind of outdoor porch that's it's it's a lot of glass walls, but it's and I think it has that transparent roof material, so it's like partially insulated and partially closed in, and they have, I think, a gas fireplace in there or something, but it's you know, it's it's not quite indoors, but it's not like an open porch, and it's it's it's amazing. All this light gets in and it's awesome views, it's just like an amazing place to hang out when you know in the dead of winter when it's you know you can't really hang outside, but it's kind of the closest thing.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, that sounds fantastic.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so I'm a big fan. With Sage Outdoor Advisory, what does the future hold? Where I guess maybe where where's the company at today? And you know, where where are you headed for the future?

SPEAKER_04:

That's a great question. Well, we have there's about 10 of us on the Sage Outdoor Advisory side, and we are lucky to have people all over the country, coast to coast, and that that growth has been phenomenal for us. So I don't have necessarily desires to grow into this huge company. I just we have such a great group of people, both from their work on a professional level as well as just being really kind, fun, interesting individuals. We had so much fun in Denver having all of us at a little retreat after the glamping show. I just feel so fortunate. So I think our growth will be very strategic that we that we don't lose that amazing culture that we have and what we're able to offer to our clients. That being said, we are doing more international work. We have a project in that we completed in the Bahamas earlier this year that was really unique. It was a boutique hotel and renovation of an old beach club. And through through my travels and finally attending the first Eco Resort Summit in Greece, I've met a lot of people internationally, and we have partnered with Lars Schaefer of Glamping Advisors, who does a ton of work in Europe and even in South America. And we're in the process of formalizing a strategic partnership to do more international work together. We're working on a project in Germany now, and I'm really excited about what we can learn from each other and what we can partner and do. So I'll be going to the Eco Resort Summit next year in Thailand and continuing to learn more about off-grid building and more international work, mostly because I get excited about it. But but you know, the principles are the same, whether you're in the US or outside of it, there's just different regulatory environments and different different supply and demand factors. So more to come on working internationally, and we hope to grow our international audience on our podcast. And then we want to continue to invest in our data to support the industry. We're gonna have our first RV resort market data report released this year, uh, similar to the glamping reports that that we're offering for sale. And they'll focus on rate trends and different rate segments and by amenities and by region. And um we're gonna continue to do some specialized study to help support studies to help support the industry in making the best decisions they can about investments in the space.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it. And it was pretty fun. It's pretty fun to be at the glamping show hanging out at the Sage booth and get to see how many Sage clients were there. And I, you know, now that you've been in business for so long, to see so many past clients of Sage walking around and coming up to the booth and seeing their projects get built is a really exciting time for the company and cool to see your impact. It's no wonder that some people refer to you as the glamping godmother. And now we're thrilled to have you here on the podcast as a regular staple figure and co-host. So, Sherry, thanks for your time.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, Connor. I'll have to work on my British accent to fill Nick Purslow's shoes.

SPEAKER_02:

I know it's it's it's hard. God, I I missed that accent. How is do you have any asks of the audience ways for them to get in touch with you or with the business?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, uh, the best place to get in touch with our team in general is the our website, which is SageOutdooradvisory.com. You can schedule a free consultation on the link on our landing page. You can find me on LinkedIn. My last name is H E I L A L A, but also my email address is that same spelling, halala H E I L A L A at Sage Outdoor Advisory.com. And we hope you tune in and listen and keep following along on the podcast. And we hope to support the industry even more.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. Thanks so much, Sherry.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, Cater.